Hiatus Update! – How Did We Not Know That
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Show Notes
Could you imagine going to jail for loving someone whose skin color didn’t match yours? It wasn’t too long ago that this was the case. In this episode, Jac takes you through the history of how interracial marriage rights came to be in the United States of America, and shares the story of the couple that helped make it happen.
Sources:
Tell the Court I Love My Wife: Race, Marriage, and Law—an American History. By Peter Wallenstein.
Loving v. Virginia. Encyclopedia Virginia.
Loving v. Virginia. Cornell Law School Legal Information Institute.
Law and the Politics of Marriage: Loving v. Virginia After 30 Years Introduction. Robert A. Destro.
What You Didn’t Know About Loving v. Virginia. Time Magazine.
https://www.history.com/topics/civil-rights-movement/loving-v-virginia
https://www.history.com/topics/black-history/fourteenth-amendment
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/equal_protection
Transcript
0:00:00.030,0:00:04.650
hello everybody and welcome back to
0:00:02.730,0:00:07.950
another episode of how did we not know
0:00:04.650,0:00:10.590
that my name is Matt my name is Jack and
0:00:07.950,0:00:13.740
today we have another super exciting
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episode about Supreme Court cases yeah
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we love the US Supreme Court alright so
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today we’re presenting on the loving
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versus Virginia a Supreme Court case of
0:00:22.820,0:00:30.420
1967 well I have actually I’ve heard
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about ski yeah it’s a popular one yeah
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didn’t they just make a movie about it I
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you know my sister asked me the same
0:00:35.550,0:00:40.500
thing I think that yeah they must have
0:00:38.280,0:00:43.230
like recently it’s also a really easy
0:00:40.500,0:00:46.739
Supreme Court case to remember so loving
0:00:43.230,0:00:50.719
versus Virginia is basically it’s not
0:00:46.739,0:00:54.449
basically it is the case that a lied
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banning interracial marriage yeah it’s
0:00:54.449,0:01:02.719
like Love Wins and this was the case
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that in 2015 when same-sex marriage was
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granted their rights were granted
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same-sex marriage equal had equal rights
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cuz I there’s like double negatives when
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I say like this outlawed the ban of it’s
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like confusing to me but yeah that was
0:01:15.720,0:01:21.420
the ban on same-sex marriage so their
0:01:19.140,0:01:25.409
same-sex it was that case that happened
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in 2015 is a heavily influenced on the
0:01:25.409,0:01:31.350
same argument that was made in this case
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okay I see that make sense yeah
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okay so living versus Virginia 1967 it
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so to talk about this case we have to go
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all the way back to 1924 and we’re gonna
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talk a bit about something that they
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thought was needed in Virginia but it
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was called the racial integrity Act of
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1924 I don’t understand why something
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like this existed but now that I do
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research I’m like okay I’m not surprised
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it was arranged by the General Assembly
0:02:01.860,0:02:07.200
of Virginia and this Act reinforced
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racial segregation by prohibiting
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interracial marriage and classifying
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interracial marriages
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only in regards to a white person and
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then anyone colored so if you’re colored
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and this other person’s colored you guys
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can marry like if you’re Hispanic you’re
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black you guys get married that’s fine
0:02:25.019,0:02:29.670
between white people and anyone who’s
0:02:27.390,0:02:32.250
not white that was outlawed it did not
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realize that I thought it was just yeah
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Wow okay
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any inter no it was just white people
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and anyone who was colored yikes
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so at during this time in 1924
0:02:42.569,0:02:49.609
interracial marriage was still a law
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handled by the states so a lot of the
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yeah there are some states that were
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more open to it like Ohio had
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interracial marriage in 1884 I believe
0:02:58.230,0:03:01.739
that was already a thing yeah a lot of
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the northern states already had
0:03:01.739,0:03:06.659
interracial marriages fine mom I would
0:03:04.980,0:03:09.599
not yeah I would have thought it would
0:03:06.659,0:03:11.280
have been a lot later yeah no I was
0:03:09.599,0:03:14.310
surprised to there the northern states
0:03:11.280,0:03:17.940
had it by 1884 and then states like
0:03:14.310,0:03:21.380
California out west that maybe we came
0:03:17.940,0:03:26.579
acquired a little later had it by 1967
0:03:21.380,0:03:28.859
but then the see yeah like in 1924 to
0:03:26.579,0:03:31.349
1967 like they were allowing it but then
0:03:28.859,0:03:33.359
it was like not until 1967 that it
0:03:31.349,0:03:35.609
finally got outlawed and all of these
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southern states sighs other states this
0:03:35.609,0:03:42.359
is just your history they they had this
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for until the Supreme Court ruled that
0:03:42.359,0:03:51.000
it’s all over spoiler alert
0:03:44.069,0:03:53.940
yeah we outlawed this ban yeah now we’re
0:03:51.000,0:03:55.829
in 1958 so I’m going to introduce you to
0:03:53.940,0:03:58.079
two of our characters there’s a girl
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named Mildred Jeter she’s an
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african-american woman and and a white
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man named Richard Lovings so they fell
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in love as young teenagers in rural
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Virginia and in the summer of 1958
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Mildred was about 18 at the time and she
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discovers she’s pregnant with Richard
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Lovings child so their child he’s the
0:04:18.570,0:04:24.150
father and Richard is white so
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they decide to get married but since
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it’s still bad interracial marriages
0:04:25.919,0:04:30.479
banned in Virginia they decide to go to
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DC where it’s legal and get married
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there so they get married in DC and they
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return to Virginia shortly after
0:04:35.819,0:04:40.949
oh sorry and this was in June 1958 they
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got married and so they come back to
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Virginia and shortly after on July 11th
0:04:43.789,0:04:49.530
1958 at 2:00 a.m. the local sheriff and
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cops come in and they just like break
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and enter into their house and break
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into like their bedroom as well in the
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middle of the night and arrest them and
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they end up going to jail so they’re
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charged on violation of the racial
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integrity Act and are not yeah they
0:05:05.460,0:05:09.389
should they just
0:05:06.389,0:05:10.949
yeah they got charged on that hey yeah I
0:05:09.389,0:05:13.110
know it’s there plenty for they both
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plead guilty to it and they’re sentenced
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to either one year of prison or they can
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be banished from Virginia for 25 years
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and if they return after the 25 years
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they can’t be married whoa a really long
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time I know I know I read that and I was
0:05:28.560,0:05:32.250
like well like that’s a really long time
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especially when you have family and
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friends yeah jigna because at first my
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first thought was like Virginia that
0:05:37.169,0:05:42.210
nice that like you would be super upset
0:05:38.699,0:05:45.990
about this well I get it now – I get it
0:05:42.210,0:05:47.520
Oh Oh No like if your whole family lives
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there then yeah that’s awful then you
0:05:47.520,0:05:51.569
can be with your family but right I get
0:05:50.159,0:05:54.020
it now I first when I read that I was
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like okay yeah I just leave Virginia but
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now that I’m older when you leave the
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place for 25 years that’s your whole
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life you don’t get to see anyone yeah
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and they grew up there that’s like where
0:06:04.169,0:06:08.550
they live that’s where they work that’s
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their home so anyways they move to DC
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and they really don’t like it they’ve
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missed the family missed their friends
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so they decide five years into their
0:06:14.880,0:06:20.940
sentencing they’re gonna come back and
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visit and again they get arrested when
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they enter Virginia for traveling
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together Wow yeah and then so Mildred
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they have to go back to DC
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Mildred gets like pretty tired about it
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and she decides to Ray
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- attorney Robert Kennedy and this is
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the brother of John F Kennedy who was
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president at the time but they write to
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Robert Kennedy and Robert Kennedy in
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1963 or 1964 ish the I tried to gather
0:06:50.960,0:06:55.430
info oh and some people’s in 1963 70 was
0:06:53.509,0:06:57.949
in 1964 but Mildred writes the letter
0:06:55.430,0:07:00.889
around that time and Robert Kennedy
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refers to her to the American Civil
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Liberties Union
0:07:02.060,0:07:09.949
so ACLU which yeah it still exists today
0:07:06.680,0:07:12.380
this is the if anyone is remembers the
0:07:09.949,0:07:17.419
2016 elections everyone started donating
0:07:12.380,0:07:19.690
to ACLU and ACLU is a it’s a nonprofit
0:07:17.419,0:07:22.190
organization that was founded in the
0:07:19.690,0:07:23.599
1920s to defend and preserve the
0:07:22.190,0:07:25.370
individual rights and liberties
0:07:23.599,0:07:27.440
guaranteed to every person in this
0:07:25.370,0:07:30.830
country by the Constitution and laws of
0:07:27.440,0:07:33.770
the United States so the letter gets
0:07:30.830,0:07:35.630
forwarded to ACLU and to attorneys reach
0:07:33.770,0:07:38.180
out to the Lovings and they take on
0:07:35.630,0:07:41.620
their case so the two attorneys are
0:07:38.180,0:07:44.120
Bernie Cohen and Philip hirschkop
0:07:41.620,0:07:46.009
purpose at the right and they file a
0:07:44.120,0:07:48.110
motion on behalf of the Lovings to the
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Virginia Caroline County Circuit Court
0:07:48.110,0:07:52.880
requesting to allow their marriage since
0:07:50.960,0:07:54.979
denying it breaks the Fourteenth
0:07:52.880,0:07:58.460
Amendments Equal Protection Clause and
0:07:54.979,0:08:00.860
I’ll get into explaining that later into
0:07:58.460,0:08:02.479
the episode but they end up losing the
0:08:00.860,0:08:05.930
trial court which is like where they’re
0:08:02.479,0:08:08.389
first like to plead guilty and had their
0:08:05.930,0:08:10.190
sentencing and then after that it gets
0:08:08.389,0:08:13.190
escalated up to the Virginia Supreme
0:08:10.190,0:08:16.400
Court and they lose again so after that
0:08:13.190,0:08:20.330
it goes up to the Supreme Court the US
0:08:16.400,0:08:21.650
Supreme Court and during this time the
0:08:20.330,0:08:23.090
Lovings were getting a lot of social
0:08:21.650,0:08:24.560
media attention to that they didn’t
0:08:23.090,0:08:27.380
really want they had like a whole
0:08:24.560,0:08:29.030
article published in Time magazine yeah
0:08:27.380,0:08:31.029
because this is also so civil rights
0:08:29.030,0:08:32.870
movement for anyone who’s not familiar
0:08:31.029,0:08:38.029
the civil rights movement in America
0:08:32.870,0:08:41.599
that happened like 50s to 60s so 1963
0:08:38.029,0:08:44.000
1964 this is like right right before the
0:08:41.599,0:08:47.209
civil rights movement like this is one
0:08:44.000,0:08:48.320
of those things where people or local
0:08:47.209,0:08:50.600
government governments
0:08:48.320,0:08:54.410
are still trying to enforce segregation
0:08:50.600,0:08:58.910
through marriage so this is during that
0:08:54.410,0:09:00.260
time okay so they get a lot of social
0:08:58.910,0:09:02.600
media attention they didn’t really want
0:09:00.260,0:09:04.760
so they don’t even show up to the US
0:09:02.600,0:09:06.140
Supreme Court hearings or any of that
0:09:04.760,0:09:07.520
because they just didn’t want it they
0:09:06.140,0:09:09.290
just they’re just two people in love
0:09:07.520,0:09:12.050
they didn’t want to deal with all of
0:09:09.290,0:09:14.810
this also like I’m sure like their
0:09:12.050,0:09:21.590
safety was being threatened as well rule
0:09:14.810,0:09:24.170
T and yeah a true okay so they just want
0:09:21.590,0:09:27.620
to be a regular normal married couple I
0:09:24.170,0:09:31.310
know it’s such a privilege to think that
0:09:27.620,0:09:33.140
that wasn’t your right which I mean 2015
0:09:31.310,0:09:35.330
we just had same-sex marriage and now
0:09:33.140,0:09:38.480
like future generations we like what
0:09:35.330,0:09:40.250
that was outlawed yeah
0:09:38.480,0:09:42.290
and in some countries it is still
0:09:40.250,0:09:44.210
outlawed I’m sure in some countries they
0:09:42.290,0:09:46.550
outlaw interracial marriage too
0:09:44.210,0:09:48.370
so I wouldn’t I don’t even know if this
0:09:46.550,0:09:52.220
is a fully resolved problem in the world
0:09:48.370,0:09:55.970
and okay so it gets escalated to the US
0:09:52.220,0:09:59.540
Supreme Court and on April 10th 1967 the
0:09:55.970,0:10:02.840
court engages in like the debates that
0:09:59.540,0:10:05.150
they have so the issue was whether or
0:10:02.840,0:10:07.610
not a state law prohibiting marriage
0:10:05.150,0:10:09.200
exclusively on the basis of race was
0:10:07.610,0:10:11.140
constitutional under the Fourteenth
0:10:09.200,0:10:14.060
Amendment and the Fourteenth Amendment
0:10:11.140,0:10:15.620
grants citizenship to all people born or
0:10:14.060,0:10:17.780
naturalized in the United States
0:10:15.620,0:10:20.030
including former slaves and guarantees
0:10:17.780,0:10:24.470
all citizens equal protection of the
0:10:20.030,0:10:26.870
laws yeah I think that should say equal
0:10:24.470,0:10:28.610
protection under the law it’s fine that
0:10:26.870,0:10:33.890
was a direct quote so I just sounds
0:10:28.610,0:10:35.600
weird okay and then there are two um two
0:10:33.890,0:10:40.640
clauses within the Fourteenth Amendment
0:10:35.600,0:10:42.050
that the argument really used and it was
0:10:40.640,0:10:43.880
the Equal Protection Clause which
0:10:42.050,0:10:45.590
basically forces a state to govern
0:10:43.880,0:10:48.290
impartially so you can’t draw
0:10:45.590,0:10:51.350
distinctions between individuals solely
0:10:48.290,0:10:53.570
on differences that are ill irrelevant
0:10:51.350,0:10:57.860
or to a legitimate governmental
0:10:53.570,0:10:59.420
objective so basically equal protection
0:10:57.860,0:11:02.260
states are supposed to protect their
0:10:59.420,0:11:07.640
citizens equally yeah and the do
0:11:02.260,0:11:09.950
process clause is the it stick that nor
0:11:07.640,0:11:12.170
shall any state deprive any person of
0:11:09.950,0:11:15.050
life liberty or property without due
0:11:12.170,0:11:16.460
process of law so basically this means
0:11:15.050,0:11:18.680
it’s a fancy way of saying an
0:11:16.460,0:11:22.910
individual’s right to marry cannot be
0:11:18.680,0:11:25.580
invaded by the state yeah okay so it’s
0:11:22.910,0:11:27.770
okay also is this 14th amendment it’s
0:11:25.580,0:11:29.630
where is title nine like under all this
0:11:27.770,0:11:31.400
like you know title nine is like
0:11:29.630,0:11:34.040
discriminate what’s title and it’s in
0:11:31.400,0:11:35.870
title nine like employers or others
0:11:34.040,0:11:39.860
can’t discriminate based on like gender
0:11:35.870,0:11:42.320
race ethnicity oh I don’t know I don’t
0:11:39.860,0:11:45.500
know when did that come was that later
0:11:42.320,0:11:47.960
on or was it time that title nine was
0:11:45.500,0:11:51.680
created after the civil rights movement
0:11:47.960,0:11:55.490
um yeah this wasn’t that wasn’t involved
0:11:51.680,0:11:58.160
in this case yeah I don’t know where
0:11:55.490,0:12:00.740
title nine fits under it’ll be row
0:11:58.160,0:12:03.380
school look that up yeah I hear about a
0:12:00.740,0:12:06.950
lot in terms of Education
0:12:03.380,0:12:08.570
I think mmm-hmm yeah we can look into
0:12:06.950,0:12:11.110
that I feel like that would be a good
0:12:08.570,0:12:11.110
another episode
0:12:11.590,0:12:17.300
branch off of this so but actually so
0:12:15.200,0:12:19.100
another maybe that’s related to this one
0:12:17.300,0:12:21.950
too another thing that the core also
0:12:19.100,0:12:26.600
uses to argue against it is they apply
0:12:21.950,0:12:28.850
strict scrutiny you hear that like is it
0:12:26.600,0:12:30.760
kind of similar I guess like strict
0:12:28.850,0:12:34.340
strict scrutiny it’s like they have to
0:12:30.760,0:12:36.470
examine it very careful yeah kind of so
0:12:34.340,0:12:38.630
they basically the state’s laws that
0:12:36.470,0:12:42.140
involve racial classification they have
0:12:38.630,0:12:43.910
to pass strict scrutiny so any this is
0:12:42.140,0:12:46.970
this gets applied to any affirmative
0:12:43.910,0:12:48.380
action policy it has to be there are two
0:12:46.970,0:12:50.870
things that has to fulfill it has to be
0:12:48.380,0:12:53.210
necessary to further a compelling state
0:12:50.870,0:12:56.780
interest and it also has to be narrowly
0:12:53.210,0:13:00.200
tailored to further that interest okay
0:12:56.780,0:13:05.270
so if you led like affirmative action in
0:13:00.200,0:13:08.090
college is that like wants you to meet a
0:13:05.270,0:13:10.870
certain quota for African American
0:13:08.090,0:13:14.180
students or Asian American students that
0:13:10.870,0:13:15.769
that passes both of the qualifications
0:13:14.180,0:13:18.679
so that’s why something
0:13:15.769,0:13:22.579
related to race can be enforced I see
0:13:18.679,0:13:25.369
okay yeah strict scrutiny mm-hmm so
0:13:22.579,0:13:27.619
those are that was what the Supreme
0:13:25.369,0:13:28.879
Court that was like their argument or
0:13:27.619,0:13:32.689
people against it that was their
0:13:28.879,0:13:35.029
argument and the Virginia’s argument was
0:13:32.689,0:13:37.309
that a more differential analysis should
0:13:35.029,0:13:41.329
apply a because the state punishes
0:13:37.309,0:13:43.129
members of both races equally and then
0:13:41.329,0:13:45.529
the court what do you think of about
0:13:43.129,0:13:49.699
that huh
0:13:45.529,0:13:52.999
I mean yeah that’s really that’s I feel
0:13:49.699,0:13:58.519
like that’s a really easy Oh like I
0:13:52.999,0:14:02.209
guess technically both races are being
0:13:58.519,0:14:04.160
affected but I don’t agree like no I
0:14:02.209,0:14:06.559
just like it feels wrong it feels a
0:14:04.160,0:14:10.970
little wrong like that’s like such a
0:14:06.559,0:14:12.559
like technical like well how about if it
0:14:10.970,0:14:14.269
affects both races I think they just
0:14:12.559,0:14:16.939
shouldn’t affect either race at all and
0:14:14.269,0:14:18.949
just let them be happy you know exactly
0:14:16.939,0:14:22.069
no that’s a good I think that’s a good
0:14:18.949,0:14:24.369
starting argument I think the people in
0:14:22.069,0:14:27.410
the court did a little better though
0:14:24.369,0:14:29.990
they basically rejected that claim and
0:14:27.410,0:14:32.290
they noted that the law draws a racial
0:14:29.990,0:14:34.699
classification on its face by forbidding
0:14:32.290,0:14:37.819
international marriages with white
0:14:34.699,0:14:40.639
people so strict scrutiny does apply
0:14:37.819,0:14:42.769
because it’s just white people are not
0:14:40.639,0:14:44.269
supposed to mix with what I like other
0:14:42.769,0:14:47.749
race but they’re okay with colored
0:14:44.269,0:14:50.149
people mixing so the court eventually
0:14:47.749,0:14:54.309
ruled that the anti-miscegenation law
0:14:50.149,0:14:57.829
which is just like the that that’s the
0:14:54.309,0:14:59.959
the racial integrity Act of 1924 they’re
0:14:57.829,0:15:03.579
miscegenation laws so it just like
0:14:59.959,0:15:06.169
prevents people from mixing races and
0:15:03.579,0:15:09.730
they ruled that that had no other
0:15:06.169,0:15:13.639
purpose than to perpetrate perpetuation
0:15:09.730,0:15:16.279
actually got you a racial discrimination
0:15:13.639,0:15:18.169
I concluded that the law had been
0:15:16.279,0:15:19.850
created to further white supremacy and
0:15:18.169,0:15:22.129
reason that the restriction on freedom
0:15:19.850,0:15:24.350
to marry violates the principle purpose
0:15:22.129,0:15:27.470
of the Equal Protection Clause which is
0:15:24.350,0:15:28.620
to eliminate state discrimination yes
0:15:27.470,0:15:30.270
okay
0:15:28.620,0:15:32.940
yeah that is I agree that’s a way better
0:15:30.270,0:15:34.260
argument I think he would have gotten to
0:15:32.940,0:15:36.450
it eventually but that was my first
0:15:34.260,0:15:39.210
thought too I was like okay Virginia has
0:15:36.450,0:15:41.640
a point like I don’t like it
0:15:39.210,0:15:43.080
but you have yeah like it feels wrong
0:15:41.640,0:15:45.120
you know what’s wrong when you don’t
0:15:43.080,0:15:46.980
know you need some more time to come up
0:15:45.120,0:15:48.360
with why that’s wrong and then you’d
0:15:46.980,0:15:52.050
eventually get to that argument that
0:15:48.360,0:15:54.870
they came up with whoa whoo I’m June
0:15:52.050,0:15:57.900
12th 1967 the court announces
0:15:54.870,0:15:59.910
unanimously so everyone was like scrap
0:15:57.900,0:16:02.220
it they sided with the Lovings
0:15:59.910,0:16:03.630
overturning their conviction in ruling
0:16:02.220,0:16:07.200
Virginia’s interracial marriage ban
0:16:03.630,0:16:09.860
unconstitutional though Chief Justice
0:16:07.200,0:16:12.300
Earl Warren rules that the state
0:16:09.860,0:16:13.950
interracial marriage bans violate both
0:16:12.300,0:16:16.200
the equal protection clause and the Due
0:16:13.950,0:16:18.540
Process Clause and a direct quote from
0:16:16.200,0:16:20.610
him is the Fourteenth Amendment requires
0:16:18.540,0:16:23.460
that the freedom of choice to marry not
0:16:20.610,0:16:28.470
be restricted by in individuals and
0:16:23.460,0:16:32.040
video that’s a typo yeah is that a real
0:16:28.470,0:16:36.450
word did you guys feel like I’ve never
0:16:32.040,0:16:39.870
heard of that restricted by let’s call
0:16:36.450,0:16:41.550
it state very not very strict advice
0:16:39.870,0:16:43.410
stay racial discrimination under a
0:16:41.550,0:16:45.480
constitution the freedom to marry or not
0:16:43.410,0:16:47.430
marry a person of another race resides
0:16:45.480,0:16:51.510
with the individual and cannot be
0:16:47.430,0:16:53.700
infringed by the state okay yay it’s
0:16:51.510,0:16:56.580
officially outlawed so then all of the
0:16:53.700,0:17:00.140
states are then outlawed for en’t from
0:16:56.580,0:17:03.390
any type of reach the does that mean
0:17:00.140,0:17:05.520
from then on the states are all been
0:17:03.390,0:17:07.800
outlawed from any type of marriage
0:17:05.520,0:17:09.030
discrimination law on the basis of race
0:17:07.800,0:17:11.670
okay
0:17:09.030,0:17:13.620
which and so the Supreme Court’s ruling
0:17:11.670,0:17:15.510
ruling invalidated
0:17:13.620,0:17:19.100
I am literally having such a hard time
0:17:15.510,0:17:21.420
talking today the Supreme Court’s ruling
0:17:19.100,0:17:25.890
invalidated interracial marriage bans
0:17:21.420,0:17:28.620
that were in 16 states at that time oh
0:17:25.890,0:17:30.360
so it wasn’t just Virginia 16 yeah it
0:17:28.620,0:17:32.700
wasn’t just for Genesis 16 states still
0:17:30.360,0:17:35.390
had interracial marriage bans mostly the
0:17:32.700,0:17:40.680
south again sorry this is your history
0:17:35.390,0:17:42.419
and yeah those states actually kept it
0:17:40.680,0:17:45.149
on the law books but
0:17:42.419,0:17:47.220
couldn’t enforce it anymore after was
0:17:45.149,0:17:49.019
overturned so like a lot of the southern
0:17:47.220,0:17:52.019
states not happy about it so they just
0:17:49.019,0:17:53.759
kept it to spite but they but you can’t
0:17:52.019,0:17:57.210
like and you can’t enforce it it’s now
0:17:53.759,0:17:57.809
federally outlawed your food and fun
0:17:57.210,0:18:00.359
fact
0:17:57.809,0:18:02.190
sorry Alabama but Alabama was actually
0:18:00.359,0:18:05.940
the first one or not the first one the
0:18:02.190,0:18:07.679
last one to fully remove it in 2000 so
0:18:05.940,0:18:12.119
eventually southern states remove it
0:18:07.679,0:18:15.869
from the books thousand two thousand Wow
0:18:12.119,0:18:18.239
yeah that’s great which I think it says
0:18:15.869,0:18:20.369
a lot well what will open it for
0:18:18.239,0:18:22.080
discussion soon yeah um but yeah this
0:18:20.369,0:18:24.809
helps a lot with the civil rights
0:18:22.080,0:18:26.879
movement pushing us forward and this
0:18:24.809,0:18:29.070
case like we said earlier also helped
0:18:26.879,0:18:31.259
pave the path for future cases like the
0:18:29.070,0:18:35.039
2015 United States versus Windsor case
0:18:31.259,0:18:38.100
and led 2015 obergefell versus Hodges
0:18:35.039,0:18:40.169
for same-sex marriage rights case Wow
0:18:38.100,0:18:42.989
and then another fun fact interracial
0:18:40.169,0:18:44.909
couples today we actually saw a huge Inc
0:18:42.989,0:18:46.649
well it’s actually not that big but we
0:18:44.909,0:18:49.320
see an increase in interracial marriages
0:18:46.649,0:18:52.710
from 3 percent to 17 percent in 2015
0:18:49.320,0:18:54.539
which is honestly not that much 17
0:18:52.710,0:18:59.009
percent is kind of small yeah I was
0:18:54.539,0:19:01.350
gonna say that’s a lot smaller than yeah
0:18:59.009,0:19:06.989
people were saying it’s a huge jump and
0:19:01.350,0:19:09.239
I was like yeah that makes me think a
0:19:06.989,0:19:15.840
lot differently about my parents if it’s
0:19:09.239,0:19:19.950
only 17% in 2015 yeah so yeah and I
0:19:15.840,0:19:24.179
think with Alabama not removing it till
0:19:19.950,0:19:26.609
2000 it just goes to show that yeah
0:19:24.179,0:19:29.009
people say I give this all the time like
0:19:26.609,0:19:31.080
racism is in the past and we need to get
0:19:29.009,0:19:33.119
over it but you have things don’t get
0:19:31.080,0:19:37.080
lifted to the two thousand also this
0:19:33.119,0:19:40.440
case this wasn’t banned until 1968 yes
0:19:37.080,0:19:44.700
so wait or seven 1960
0:19:40.440,0:19:46.619
I just 1967 oh my gosh so that’s not
0:19:44.700,0:19:49.379
that far off that’s less than a
0:19:46.619,0:19:50.999
generation you could be born into like a
0:19:49.379,0:19:52.529
family who really believes no
0:19:50.999,0:19:55.309
interracial marriage and just raised
0:19:52.529,0:19:59.179
that way like it’s not gone
0:19:55.309,0:20:01.460
or born like around them no idea so
0:19:59.179,0:20:04.309
that’s that’s wild
0:20:01.460,0:20:07.669
yeah those thoughts can be passed on so
0:20:04.309,0:20:10.639
now I want to ask you because fun fact
0:20:07.669,0:20:12.919
NAT and I are actually both children
0:20:10.639,0:20:16.610
from interracial couples Hey
0:20:12.919,0:20:21.499
yeah and open it for discussion yeah Wow
0:20:16.610,0:20:23.779
yeah okay uh like a discussion just talk
0:20:21.499,0:20:26.870
about yeah I just want to ask you kind
0:20:23.779,0:20:31.909
of like how do you feel about knowing
0:20:26.870,0:20:34.220
that this was a ban for so long and how
0:20:31.909,0:20:35.840
does that affect how do you feel like as
0:20:34.220,0:20:38.179
a mixed person who’s come out of that
0:20:35.840,0:20:41.119
knowing that your parents wouldn’t have
0:20:38.179,0:20:43.210
had that right before I think that’s I
0:20:41.119,0:20:45.590
think like what you said earlier about
0:20:43.210,0:20:48.080
looking at the timeline like when my
0:20:45.590,0:20:50.690
parents were born I think my dad was
0:20:48.080,0:20:52.789
born one of my parents was born in 1965
0:20:50.690,0:20:57.169
but they were born in and like their I
0:20:52.789,0:21:00.080
guess before this court case even was
0:20:57.169,0:21:02.899
like even oh my gosh my parents were
0:21:00.080,0:21:05.509
born before this Supreme Court case so I
0:21:02.899,0:21:07.999
think it’s really strange to think about
0:21:05.509,0:21:10.700
how when they were first born it was
0:21:07.999,0:21:11.179
illegal for them to even like be
0:21:10.700,0:21:13.580
together
0:21:11.179,0:21:15.169
and so that’s really crazy to think cuz
0:21:13.580,0:21:18.649
I don’t know when we talk about it in
0:21:15.169,0:21:20.269
history class or you know in whatever
0:21:18.649,0:21:23.990
context like it seems like it was so
0:21:20.269,0:21:26.360
long ago but it’s really not and I think
0:21:23.990,0:21:28.009
it’s really weird to think of a world
0:21:26.360,0:21:30.730
where like my parents couldn’t be
0:21:28.009,0:21:34.190
together because I don’t know it’s just
0:21:30.730,0:21:37.039
we’re all regular people right it feels
0:21:34.190,0:21:38.659
weird and to me I think like I don’t
0:21:37.039,0:21:41.210
know if you felt this way growing up I’m
0:21:38.659,0:21:43.519
very lucky to have like both sets of my
0:21:41.210,0:21:45.289
grandparents are very open-minded and
0:21:43.519,0:21:48.769
like I never felt like I was different
0:21:45.289,0:21:50.980
because I was mixed yeah like with my
0:21:48.769,0:21:54.919
family at least but I watched a video
0:21:50.980,0:21:56.749
about these couples who were interracial
0:21:54.919,0:21:59.299
and they were talked like today this was
0:21:56.749,0:22:00.470
released in 2017 and they were talking
0:21:59.299,0:22:02.539
about what it was like
0:22:00.470,0:22:04.820
like it was celebrating the loving
0:22:02.539,0:22:06.169
versus Virginia case anniversary they’re
0:22:04.820,0:22:07.820
talking about their relationships today
0:22:06.169,0:22:10.220
and things they go through and
0:22:07.820,0:22:12.980
um a lot of them said that they weren’t
0:22:10.220,0:22:15.710
accepted by the other person’s family
0:22:12.980,0:22:17.450
and sometimes they’re like estranged
0:22:15.710,0:22:18.790
with their parents because they really
0:22:17.450,0:22:22.630
don’t believe they should be together
0:22:18.790,0:22:24.650
yeah I think I’m really lucky both
0:22:22.630,0:22:27.380
grandparents my grandparents on both
0:22:24.650,0:22:29.090
sides were very accepting and I think
0:22:27.380,0:22:30.860
I’m really lucky to be coming from a
0:22:29.090,0:22:34.010
multi-ethnic family because growing up
0:22:30.860,0:22:36.860
in a household where we have you know
0:22:34.010,0:22:38.900
multiple ethnicities and multiple
0:22:36.860,0:22:40.490
Heritage’s and cultures like I think I’m
0:22:38.900,0:22:42.860
really lucky to grow up with that
0:22:40.490,0:22:45.860
background because I think it really
0:22:42.860,0:22:47.900
shaped my birth my world worldly
0:22:45.860,0:22:51.770
perspectives and kind of how I see the
0:22:47.900,0:22:54.110
rest of the world and I loved it so much
0:22:51.770,0:22:56.300
like I have so many different cultures
0:22:54.110,0:22:57.980
that I can learn about and so many
0:22:56.300,0:23:00.920
things I could share with other people I
0:22:57.980,0:23:04.850
really love talking about both of my
0:23:00.920,0:23:07.400
Heritage’s so it just makes me so sad to
0:23:04.850,0:23:09.510
think about all the people in the past
0:23:07.400,0:23:11.570
who
0:23:09.510,0:23:14.160
who didn’t have not only the right but
0:23:11.570,0:23:16.950
like their safety was threatened because
0:23:14.160,0:23:19.470
of the person they loved and it’s really
0:23:16.950,0:23:21.180
exciting to think about yeah and still
0:23:19.470,0:23:24.600
today so like that was outlawed but
0:23:21.180,0:23:28.200
still today people with same-sex married
0:23:24.600,0:23:31.620
you’ll with in 2015 and so mmm-hmm and
0:23:28.200,0:23:33.270
all the you know problems that they went
0:23:31.620,0:23:35.460
through to and I I agree with you like I
0:23:33.270,0:23:38.220
really love being mixed I think it’s the
0:23:35.460,0:23:41.640
best thing about me but growing up I
0:23:38.220,0:23:45.060
definitely it’s only because I grew up
0:23:41.640,0:23:46.860
in rural Ohio which Ohio is pretty
0:23:45.060,0:23:49.740
forward compared to the southern states
0:23:46.860,0:23:53.270
like we’re pretty more accepting and
0:23:49.740,0:23:55.950
even in rural Ohio it’s more
0:23:53.270,0:23:57.890
closed-minded than most like when it
0:23:55.950,0:24:04.320
comes to a lot of issues on that and
0:23:57.890,0:24:06.930
growing up I always felt like not it’s
0:24:04.320,0:24:08.430
not accepted really for being mixed I
0:24:06.930,0:24:10.440
always didn’t feel like I was good
0:24:08.430,0:24:15.390
enough for either side which could just
0:24:10.440,0:24:17.010
be like mixed experiences I call yeah
0:24:15.390,0:24:18.840
and I also would I just want to cut it
0:24:17.010,0:24:20.880
the southern state some slack too
0:24:18.840,0:24:22.290
because I think you don’t get to choose
0:24:20.880,0:24:24.510
where you’re born right and if you’re
0:24:22.290,0:24:27.660
born into a state where everyone around
0:24:24.510,0:24:29.340
you it’s like outlawed to mix that’s the
0:24:27.660,0:24:30.980
stuff you’re taught so it doesn’t
0:24:29.340,0:24:34.730
surprise I mean that even today people
0:24:30.980,0:24:41.880
say like all the south is not great like
0:24:34.730,0:24:47.130
you you know they’re slower with banning
0:24:41.880,0:24:49.640
these racial discriminatory laws and so
0:24:47.130,0:24:53.430
they’re gonna take a while to become
0:24:49.640,0:24:56.880
more accepting yeah no I think that’s a
0:24:53.430,0:24:59.580
really good point to make yeah that’s I
0:24:56.880,0:25:03.090
mean where you’re born and your local
0:24:59.580,0:25:05.520
legislation and like what law judicial
0:25:03.090,0:25:07.860
system really has an impact on the way
0:25:05.520,0:25:09.900
you see the world and other people and
0:25:07.860,0:25:15.210
mmm-hmm yeah so I think that’s a really
0:25:09.900,0:25:17.130
interesting point to talk about yeah you
0:25:15.210,0:25:20.400
know this case I feel I’m like really
0:25:17.130,0:25:22.759
grateful for these two people who have
0:25:20.400,0:25:24.979
fought so hard I just feel so sad
0:25:22.759,0:25:27.739
that you know their whole life they had
0:25:24.979,0:25:29.419
to spend fighting I’m glad it has a
0:25:27.739,0:25:32.059
happy ending I’d really like to see the
0:25:29.419,0:25:34.459
movie to get more insight into what it
0:25:32.059,0:25:37.969
was like cuz I I swear they just
0:25:34.459,0:25:40.249
released a movie about this yeah I think
0:25:37.969,0:25:41.749
it’d be interesting to learn more about
0:25:40.249,0:25:44.719
what they had to say about the whole
0:25:41.749,0:25:47.629
experience and working with the ACL u–
0:25:44.719,0:25:50.359
and yeah and the thing is – they weren’t
0:25:47.629,0:25:51.949
um activists right they’re just normal
0:25:50.359,0:25:54.919
people and they just wanted to be
0:25:51.949,0:25:56.899
married and so they didn’t ask for like
0:25:54.919,0:25:59.029
they did send it to the aclu like
0:25:56.899,0:26:01.489
mildred just wrote a letter she didn’t
0:25:59.029,0:26:04.159
they didn’t think that it was gonna be
0:26:01.489,0:26:06.499
escalated to that extent yeah so i do
0:26:04.159,0:26:08.869
i’m so sad that you know they had to
0:26:06.499,0:26:10.459
fight this fight when you know I should
0:26:08.869,0:26:12.499
have just billion guaranteed right
0:26:10.459,0:26:14.809
definitely but also it’s eye-opening
0:26:12.499,0:26:16.929
because you know during the civil rights
0:26:14.809,0:26:20.059
movement the Supreme Court unanimously
0:26:16.929,0:26:22.249
agreed that this was discriminatory and
0:26:20.059,0:26:25.909
that says a lot about how important it
0:26:22.249,0:26:29.599
is to have the right people in the right
0:26:25.909,0:26:31.879
seats for government because if they if
0:26:29.599,0:26:33.859
any of them fell like the Virginia
0:26:31.879,0:26:36.859
Supreme Court ruled that no we should
0:26:33.859,0:26:38.779
keep that and if that majority had been
0:26:36.859,0:26:40.129
in the Supreme Court that US Supreme
0:26:38.779,0:26:42.499
Court then you would see that outlawed
0:26:40.129,0:26:44.599
for even longer so representation in
0:26:42.499,0:26:48.889
government is really really important I
0:26:44.599,0:26:51.949
mean ya wanna don’t take for granted the
0:26:48.889,0:26:53.659
way if you’re living like a good country
0:26:51.949,0:26:56.119
it’s because of good leadership and that
0:26:53.659,0:27:00.199
should be really acknowledged and
0:26:56.119,0:27:03.169
respected and aspired to continue 100
0:27:00.199,0:27:06.469
percent yeah yeah I also want to ask you
0:27:03.169,0:27:08.989
to how do you feel about this on both
0:27:06.469,0:27:10.339
sides right like when you meet like what
0:27:08.989,0:27:13.309
if there were a reverse where it was
0:27:10.339,0:27:15.379
like minority he’s well actually not
0:27:13.309,0:27:17.269
really but like I have a lot of friends
0:27:15.379,0:27:19.969
I don’t know a few lists but like as a
0:27:17.269,0:27:22.969
mixed person I just feel like people who
0:27:19.969,0:27:24.529
are not interracial like they don’t come
0:27:22.969,0:27:28.220
from interracial backgrounds I feel like
0:27:24.529,0:27:30.590
they have less interest in
0:27:28.220,0:27:32.630
like makes people you know and I mean
0:27:30.590,0:27:35.030
like that comes up with me for dating
0:27:32.630,0:27:37.039
like if someone’s I’m talking to someone
0:27:35.030,0:27:39.289
who’s like their parents are both
0:27:37.039,0:27:42.080
immigrants I feel like they wouldn’t
0:27:39.289,0:27:43.909
want a mixed person coming into that and
0:27:42.080,0:27:46.309
that’s something that surprised a lot of
0:27:43.909,0:27:48.260
my friends a lot of my friends will be
0:27:46.309,0:27:50.570
like maybe full Nigerian or full India
0:27:48.260,0:27:51.770
in full Korean and I always ask them
0:27:50.570,0:27:52.870
like what are your parents think about
0:27:51.770,0:27:55.309
it
0:27:52.870,0:27:57.440
or what would your parents feel if you
0:27:55.309,0:27:59.900
married someone who wasn’t Korean or
0:27:57.440,0:28:02.299
whatever and they’d always say like oh
0:27:59.900,0:28:04.460
like they wouldn’t care like it’s not
0:28:02.299,0:28:05.990
that weird and then they’re always
0:28:04.460,0:28:08.330
surprised and I say I feel uncomfortable
0:28:05.990,0:28:10.220
with that but then I also ask them okay
0:28:08.330,0:28:12.049
well then would you marry like someone
0:28:10.220,0:28:15.020
who isn’t and they like now I think I
0:28:12.049,0:28:17.120
want to keep it like culture wise so I’m
0:28:15.020,0:28:19.250
like okay see like a double standard in
0:28:17.120,0:28:21.020
that where I respect that you want to
0:28:19.250,0:28:23.090
keep it in the culture but that also
0:28:21.020,0:28:27.140
would also imply that you would see
0:28:23.090,0:28:28.400
interracial mixing as lower then I think
0:28:27.140,0:28:32.870
that’s really important to point out
0:28:28.400,0:28:36.260
that it’s not necessarily you know just
0:28:32.870,0:28:39.669
one-sided it’s white people being
0:28:36.260,0:28:42.020
hesitant to mix you know it comes from
0:28:39.669,0:28:46.610
all sides and so I think that’s really
0:28:42.020,0:28:48.980
interesting to point out especially when
0:28:46.610,0:28:52.669
we look at interracial marriage on a
0:28:48.980,0:28:55.130
global context because obviously this
0:28:52.669,0:29:01.480
discussion is being held all over the
0:28:55.130,0:29:05.750
world and so yeah I guess so I’ve spent
0:29:01.480,0:29:08.030
time abroad in multiple countries and
0:29:05.750,0:29:11.120
most of the countries I went to we’re
0:29:08.030,0:29:14.690
very homogeneous it’s what’s really
0:29:11.120,0:29:16.309
interesting as a mixed person living in
0:29:14.690,0:29:18.980
these countries talking about how you
0:29:16.309,0:29:24.460
know like my parents are from different
0:29:18.980,0:29:27.160
ethnicities and I kind of saying I guess
0:29:24.460,0:29:30.520
a lot of people some people who were I
0:29:27.160,0:29:33.280
guess surprised and maybe like heading
0:29:30.520,0:29:35.290
even it in some extremes like hadn’t
0:29:33.280,0:29:37.360
even seen that as an option and had a
0:29:35.290,0:29:41.080
lot of questions about what it was like
0:29:37.360,0:29:43.150
to grow up that way so yeah again it’s
0:29:41.080,0:29:44.680
not just I like I think it’s important
0:29:43.150,0:29:47.620
to reiterate that it’s not necessarily
0:29:44.680,0:29:49.600
just an American struggle or an American
0:29:47.620,0:29:52.870
issue it’s all around the world but I
0:29:49.600,0:29:54.880
think I don’t know I want to say that
0:29:52.870,0:29:58.810
like maybe this is a cliche but like
0:29:54.880,0:30:06.310
with globalization everyone it’s like
0:29:58.810,0:30:06.880
mixing you and I don’t know yeah it’s
0:30:06.310,0:30:11.260
difficult
0:30:06.880,0:30:15.100
um I don’t know what else to say yeah I
0:30:11.260,0:30:16.630
think there’s litter Syria I think like
0:30:15.100,0:30:20.019
that’s the way I grew up when I’m very
0:30:16.630,0:30:22.720
homogenous like area that might be why I
0:30:20.019,0:30:24.789
have these preconceived notions with it
0:30:22.720,0:30:28.149
but I think it’s also a valid feeling of
0:30:24.789,0:30:31.179
like what makes people feel like a
0:30:28.149,0:30:32.500
little less urban because like people
0:30:31.179,0:30:34.990
who come from in tourism I just like I
0:30:32.500,0:30:35.830
didn’t meet another mix person till I
0:30:34.990,0:30:38.559
was 27
0:30:35.830,0:30:40.029
like in 2017 when I studied abroad that
0:30:38.559,0:30:42.759
was like my first mixed friend she was
0:30:40.029,0:30:43.750
like half Swedish half Korean mm-hmm
0:30:42.759,0:30:47.049
where have you been all my life
0:30:43.750,0:30:48.519
um and she like you don’t explain
0:30:47.049,0:30:52.269
anything when you meet another mix
0:30:48.519,0:30:53.950
person like they just get it and yeah I
0:30:52.269,0:30:55.659
think well yeah I remember it because
0:30:53.950,0:30:57.490
like when we first met that was
0:30:55.659,0:30:59.440
something we bonded over really quickly
0:30:57.490,0:31:01.570
I think I had a very different
0:30:59.440,0:31:04.570
experience because growing up I grew up
0:31:01.570,0:31:07.600
in Chicago which is a I guess a lot more
0:31:04.570,0:31:10.029
diverse in rural Ohio so yeah I was
0:31:07.600,0:31:12.490
lucky to be surrounded with multiple
0:31:10.029,0:31:15.460
ethnicity so I guess growing up I didn’t
0:31:12.490,0:31:19.960
really think too much about it I do like
0:31:15.460,0:31:23.230
it I think a lot of multi-ethnic people
0:31:19.960,0:31:27.129
mix people kind of have the same
0:31:23.230,0:31:28.269
challenge where you have to balance all
0:31:27.129,0:31:30.429
right you feel like maybe you’re not
0:31:28.269,0:31:32.919
equally accepted on both sides and it’s
0:31:30.429,0:31:34.090
always kind of hard to you almost feel
0:31:32.919,0:31:39.610
like you’re struggling to like choose
0:31:34.090,0:31:41.710
which side of your family you you relate
0:31:39.610,0:31:44.980
more with and it’s kind of hard to like
0:31:41.710,0:31:46.419
accept no I guess it’s I feel like it
0:31:44.980,0:31:47.980
for me personally it’s easy to accept
0:31:46.419,0:31:49.570
that I mixed maybe when I talk to other
0:31:47.980,0:31:52.710
people it’s harder for them to accept
0:31:49.570,0:31:56.980
that I mix and like but I’m equally both
0:31:52.710,0:31:58.539
ethnicity mostly and so yeah but I get a
0:31:56.980,0:32:00.700
lot of questions I’m like what do you
0:31:58.539,0:32:02.799
identify as like that what did you put
0:32:00.700,0:32:05.620
on your college application but I’m like
0:32:02.799,0:32:09.370
it’s not a choice like I I’m equally
0:32:05.620,0:32:10.659
both so I put both down well yeah and
0:32:09.370,0:32:12.360
that’s a thing yeah that was always a
0:32:10.659,0:32:16.029
thing growing up like whenever we took
0:32:12.360,0:32:18.039
examinations like a CT or whatever like
0:32:16.029,0:32:20.340
they you have to check which race you
0:32:18.039,0:32:23.500
are and yeah it was always really
0:32:20.340,0:32:26.139
sometimes it the way it’s worded it
0:32:23.500,0:32:28.780
makes it really difficult you know and
0:32:26.139,0:32:30.820
it’s really confusing especially
0:32:28.780,0:32:33.549
as a latino like there’s always like
0:32:30.820,0:32:35.020
Hispanic are you white Hispanic or are
0:32:33.549,0:32:36.909
you not white Hispanic it’s so it’s like
0:32:35.020,0:32:39.070
all these like different boxes I’m like
0:32:36.909,0:32:41.559
why I don’t know I guess I never yeah
0:32:39.070,0:32:44.500
right yeah it wasn’t until I started
0:32:41.559,0:32:46.990
living abroad and then I realized that
0:32:44.500,0:32:49.059
like I was really lucky to grow up where
0:32:46.990,0:32:51.100
I did because I feel like I was more
0:32:49.059,0:32:53.200
accepted and then you go then I went to
0:32:51.100,0:32:55.360
certain countries where it was very you
0:32:53.200,0:32:58.090
know homogeneous and there aren’t really
0:32:55.360,0:33:00.039
any mixed couples at all and so I guess
0:32:58.090,0:33:01.720
maybe I had taken it for granted earlier
0:33:00.039,0:33:03.970
but then it was really I was really
0:33:01.720,0:33:05.980
lucky to be in a position to where I
0:33:03.970,0:33:07.960
could share my experience that’s what
0:33:05.980,0:33:10.780
makes person I’m like kind of share why
0:33:07.960,0:33:12.250
it’s super awesome I think it’s
0:33:10.780,0:33:14.650
something that you appreciate more with
0:33:12.250,0:33:16.630
time too because when you’re little like
0:33:14.650,0:33:18.159
it might just be like the vein to your
0:33:16.630,0:33:21.130
existence like it was the bane of my
0:33:18.159,0:33:23.350
existence to be half asian and I
0:33:21.130,0:33:25.570
remember but I know that like in some
0:33:23.350,0:33:27.549
East Asian countries a lot of the time
0:33:25.570,0:33:30.880
you really really looked down upon for
0:33:27.549,0:33:33.429
being mixed and that’s like most edition
0:33:30.880,0:33:35.549
strips not allowed all these things ya
0:33:33.429,0:33:39.580
know it’s a really complex issue and
0:33:35.549,0:33:40.780
yeah it in different countries at six
0:33:39.580,0:33:43.679
yeah you know different parts of the
0:33:40.780,0:33:47.260
world I feel like you get a different
0:33:43.679,0:33:49.419
different vibe Emily
0:33:47.260,0:33:55.480
very complex but right and that’s a
0:33:49.419,0:33:57.580
result of government leadership yeah
0:33:55.480,0:34:00.580
don’t take government leadership for
0:33:57.580,0:34:01.870
granted right if you like representation
0:34:00.580,0:34:08.790
is very important
0:34:01.870,0:34:30.059
yeah it’s 100 percent hey vote 2020
0:34:08.790,0:34:30.059
[Music]
How Did We Not Know That 