Hiatus Update! – How Did We Not Know That
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Show Notes
With heightened tensions concerning foreign interference and spies during World War I, Congress decided to enact the Espionage Act in 1918. In this episode, Nat breaks down the history of the Espionage Act and how it affected the First Amendment and our freedom of speech by examining some of the most influential Supreme Court cases during this period.
Sources:
- https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/250/616
- https://law.jrank.org/pages/3918/Abrams-v-United-States.html
- https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/constitutional-law/constitutional-law-keyed-to-sullivan/freedom-of-speech-why-government-restricts-speech-unprotected-and-less-protected-expression/abrams-v-united-states-3/
- https://www.britannica.com/event/Schenck-v-United-States
- https://www.britannica.com/event/Gitlow-v-New-York
- https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/189/brandenburg-v-ohio
- https://libcom.org/history/jacob-abrams-jacob-aka-jack-abrams-1883-1953
- https://dawesapushjosh.weebly.com/schenck-v-us.html
- https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/289/debs-v-united-states
- https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1597/free-speech-during-wartime
Transcript
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hello everyone and welcome to another
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episode of how did we not know that I’m
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one of your hosts my name is Jack and
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I’m Matt and today that is going to be
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presenting a Supreme Court case hello
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heck yeah no I’m super excited for today
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actually um so before this I was a bit
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nervous to do a Supreme Court case
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because I’m not really familiar with law
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terminology and jargon but once I
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started doing my research I realized
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Supreme Court cases are actually a lot
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more interesting than I initially
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thought
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so today I’m super excited to talk about
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it I’m going to be talking about the
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history of the First Amendment and
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freedom of speech and its relation to
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the Espionage Act so we’re gonna be
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talking about spies um and treason and
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all that good stuff
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yeah what’s an espionage before you
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start a fancy word for a spy okay yeah
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yeah so we’re gonna be talking about
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spies today I’m so excited okay so I’m
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gonna just dive right into it so there
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once was amazing
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so Jacob Abrams he migrated from Russia
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to America in the year 1906 and so Jacob
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Abrams was a self-proclaimed
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revolutionist and an anarchist and
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Abrams and four other immigrants wrote
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printed and distributed thousands of
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pamphlets in both English and nitish
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actually in these pamphlets so they
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called for a general strike appealing to
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workers and ammunition factories and
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asking them to stop production of
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weapons that could later be used against
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Russian revolutionaries suicide note
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it’s this is in the 1918 so this is
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during World War one
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so yeah so basically they have these
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pamphlets and they’re like hey like
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don’t please stop making the weapons
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that are being used to fought in World
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War 1 against the Russian army and so
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these pamphlets also criticize President
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Woodrow Wilson for his role in World War
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one and they were saying that he was a
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coward and also a hypocrite for sending
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troops to fight in Russia and say can I
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ask what this is like a little label
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what is he it is a this is like the
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language spoken by Jewish people
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so based me because they’re Jewish
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Russians okay okay
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they were sending these pamphlets to
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other Jewish Russian immigrants in the
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United States within New York yeah yeah
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they’re oh I don’t think I mentioned so
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that’s actually my next line in my notes
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Oh so the oddest 23rd 1918 so Abrams and
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these other Russian immigrants were
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arrested in New York City and they were
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charged with violating the Espionage Act
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and sentenced to 20 years in prison so
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you might be wondering what is the
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Espionage Act
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so the Espionage Act was enacted by
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Congress on June 15 in the June 15th in
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the year 1917 and so this is actually
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two months after the enters World War
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one so just to refresh everyone’s
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knowledge on World War one so it lasted
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from 1914 to 1918
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but the US didn’t enter the war until
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1917 so they entered like very late and
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within so between the years 1919 and
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1920 there are actually eight hundred
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convictions made under the Espionage Act
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so 800 people are basically arrested
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saying that they violate violated this
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Espionage Act within one year so that’s
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a lot of people and so I’m going to read
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off basically what the Espionage Act
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says just so we are all aware and we
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don’t violate the Espionage
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so the Espionage Act prohibits obtaining
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information recording pictures or
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copying descriptions of any information
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relating to the National Defense with
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intent or reason to believe that the
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information may be used for the injury
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of the United States or to the advantage
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of any foreign nation and so
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additionally the Espionage Act also
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makes it a crime to obstruct enlistment
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in the Armed Forces or like cause
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insubordination within military / naval
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forces and another like interesting fact
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under President Wilson’s administration
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local mailman and like post office
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employees post yeah
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postal employees we’re able to report
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any suspicious materials to the
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government or law enforcement so I
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yeah that’s not normally we go you can’t
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really like go through yeah does it
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still exist today is this um I don’t
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believe so I mean that during peacetime
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you can’t do that during peacetime I
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think in my research it was just under
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Wilson’s administration but I don’t know
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if any other presidents enacted this
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policy that’s a good thing to look up
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and so this isn’t so this is a 1917
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right and so in 1918 Congress passes the
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Sedition Act and so the Sedition Act
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basically is an amendment to the
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Espionage Act and it gives it even more
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powers so it’s just like adding on to
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the Espionage Act so I’m also going to
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just quote the Sedition Act so it
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extends the Espionage Act to
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additionally make it a crime to
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willfully utter print write or publish
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any disloyal profane scurrilous which
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means like slander slander or abusive
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language about the form of the
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government of the United States or to
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willfully urge insight or advocate any
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curtailment of the production of the
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things necessary or essential to the
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prosecution of the war so in a nutshell
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it’s just you can’t say anything bad
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about the US government and you can’t
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like hinder
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anything in regards to US war efforts
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and so before I get back into Abrams
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hole I guess charge violation of the
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Espionage Act I want to kind of set the
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scene as to what America looked like
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during this time period during World War
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one because obviously this is the First
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World War
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so very high tensions stress people are
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kind of pointing fingers at each other
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left and right and because of this there
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are several accounts of the suppression
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of free speech by federal government
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state government local government so to
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go through a few a few of these examples
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so Pittsburgh actually banned music by
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the German composer Ludwig van Beethoven
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during the war because we were fighting
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against Germany so you couldn’t listen
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to Beethoven during World War one and
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Los Angeles Board of Education
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prohibited all discussions of peace in
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schools John White who was a farmer from
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Ohio was imprisoned for stating that
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soldiers in American camps were quote
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dying off like flies unquote and that
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the quote murder of innocent women and
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children by German soldiers was no worse
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than what the United States soldiers did
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in the Philippines
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unquote yoikes got imprisoned for saying
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that and when we freedom of speech is
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our First Amendment right right okay so
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they’re going to jail on like
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infringement okay so basically under the
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First Amendment it says we Americans
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have freedom of speech you be can say
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whatever we want but there’s a lot of
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like side notes and a lot of exceptions
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in wartime we’ll see later on
0:08:23.099,0:08:28.529
but during wartime there’s a lot more
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research restrictions on what we can and
0:08:28.529,0:08:35.519
can’t say yeah and so additionally a man
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in Minnesota was arrested under a state
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espionage law for criticizing women who
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were knitting socks for soldiers and
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basically he said no soldiers ever see
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these socks and the
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because of that he wanted to do and then
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finally 27 farmers in South Dakota were
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convicted for sending a petition to the
0:08:53.650,0:08:57.760
government objecting the military draft
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and calling the war a capitalist board
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so as you can see like people are
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getting imprisoned left and right for
0:09:02.710,0:09:08.410
just for the things they’re saying and
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so if it’s not yeah it’s very high
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tension and people are very nervous yeah
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and quick to throw people in jail
0:09:14.020,0:09:19.420
yeah and there’s also like the like a
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postal system is like permission to spy
0:09:19.420,0:09:23.800
on these people too so yeah yeah you
0:09:22.270,0:09:25.900
cannot get away with that during
0:09:23.800,0:09:27.340
peacetime but war and this is that you
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also have to remember this is the first
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world war so I think people were
0:09:29.710,0:09:33.400
freaking out a lot more than usual and
0:09:31.840,0:09:35.590
everyone was there’s a lot of fear
0:09:33.400,0:09:36.850
across the country yeah you like don’t
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know what’s gonna happen either
0:09:36.850,0:09:41.260
yeah and additionally you know in the
0:09:38.860,0:09:43.840
early 20th century there’s a lot of
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immigration and so I guess it’s also a
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lot of pointing fingers at immigrants
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from other countries as we’ll see you
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and as we history and and just to
0:09:51.970,0:09:55.480
clarify because I’m not super familiar
0:09:53.410,0:09:58.990
but we were we were on the winning side
0:09:55.480,0:10:02.500
of World War one yeah and World War two
0:09:58.990,0:10:04.570
yeah yeah yeah see like that’s the thing
0:10:02.500,0:10:08.020
is we’re in a developing nation at that
0:10:04.570,0:10:11.080
time so to be if we had been on the
0:10:08.020,0:10:13.440
losing side I think America would not be
0:10:11.080,0:10:16.240
the country it is today
0:10:13.440,0:10:19.570
actually I so there’s actually a book
0:10:16.240,0:10:21.700
written about this it’s called the man
0:10:19.570,0:10:24.940
in the high castle by philip k dick and
0:10:21.700,0:10:27.310
it’s all about what happens if we lost
0:10:24.940,0:10:30.070
World War two and Germany and Japan had
0:10:27.310,0:10:32.200
won well I I just finished it reading it
0:10:30.070,0:10:33.610
reading it a couple weeks ago you should
0:10:32.200,0:10:36.940
definitely check it out I think in a
0:10:33.610,0:10:38.980
whole show on it now so okay yeah I’ll
0:10:36.940,0:10:42.700
look at it reading let me know what to
0:10:38.980,0:10:45.040
think but uh but yeah it’s crazy and so
0:10:42.700,0:10:49.060
okay so before I go into the details of
0:10:45.040,0:10:50.710
Jacob Abrams I have to give you even
0:10:49.060,0:10:55.270
more background on the First Amendment
0:10:50.710,0:10:57.490
freedom of speech so we have one of the
0:10:55.270,0:10:58.209
most influential court Supreme Court
0:10:57.490,0:11:01.720
cases of all
0:10:58.209,0:11:05.470
times during the year 1918 so right
0:11:01.720,0:11:07.540
before Abraham’s his trial goes to the
0:11:05.470,0:11:11.319
Supreme Court right so this case is
0:11:07.540,0:11:13.300
called shank versus the United States um
0:11:11.319,0:11:16.809
I’m not sure if you’ve heard of it
0:11:13.300,0:11:18.519
before I think whenever he’s a the US
0:11:16.809,0:11:21.220
government politics
0:11:18.519,0:11:21.670
um but yeah so a shank versus a United
0:11:21.220,0:11:24.129
States
0:11:21.670,0:11:26.589
so Charles T shank was the general
0:11:24.129,0:11:28.839
general secretary of the u.s. Socialist
0:11:26.589,0:11:31.149
Party and so this party opposed the
0:11:28.839,0:11:34.179
implementation of a military draft for
0:11:31.149,0:11:37.329
World War one and so they just printed
0:11:34.179,0:11:39.249
and distributed 15,000 leaflets that
0:11:37.329,0:11:42.610
encouraged men who were drafted to
0:11:39.249,0:11:44.259
resist their military service and and on
0:11:42.610,0:11:46.540
top of this they were also advocating
0:11:44.259,0:11:48.939
some more peaceful action such as
0:11:46.540,0:11:50.740
petitioning for the repeal of the
0:11:48.939,0:11:55.300
conscription act which is like
0:11:50.740,0:11:58.119
enlistment and so shank is charged with
0:11:55.300,0:12:00.369
violating the Espionage Act because he
0:11:58.119,0:12:02.679
attempted to obstruct recruitment and
0:12:00.369,0:12:04.149
cause insubordination in the military so
0:12:02.679,0:12:07.179
it’s like a direct violation of the Act
0:12:04.149,0:12:09.730
right and so his court his case is taken
0:12:07.179,0:12:11.259
to the Supreme Court and in the Supreme
0:12:09.730,0:12:12.429
Court it is up holded through a
0:12:11.259,0:12:14.559
unanimous vote
0:12:12.429,0:12:18.009
so also side note we’re gonna learn some
0:12:14.559,0:12:20.829
law terminology today because I was
0:12:18.009,0:12:23.439
super confused about this at first so
0:12:20.829,0:12:26.049
uphold basically means the Supreme Court
0:12:23.439,0:12:27.429
agrees with whatever the court below it
0:12:26.049,0:12:27.939
ruled so they’re like yeah they were
0:12:27.429,0:12:31.949
right
0:12:27.939,0:12:35.199
so like in this case Schenk goes to jail
0:12:31.949,0:12:36.699
and then if they overturn it then that
0:12:35.199,0:12:38.110
means they disagree with the ruling and
0:12:36.699,0:12:41.019
they’re like now you’re good to go so
0:12:38.110,0:12:43.029
just to clarify so yeah it’s a unanimous
0:12:41.019,0:12:46.869
vote – so all the justices were like no
0:12:43.029,0:12:49.269
get him outta here basically the Supreme
0:12:46.869,0:12:51.339
Court argues that shanks actions
0:12:49.269,0:12:53.709
presented enough danger that they had
0:12:51.339,0:12:56.170
the right to prevent it and this
0:12:53.709,0:12:59.259
basically sets the precedent that during
0:12:56.170,0:13:01.269
wartime speech that was how tolerable
0:12:59.259,0:13:04.389
during peacetime can be punishable by
0:13:01.269,0:13:06.519
law so they’re like more time is special
0:13:04.389,0:13:08.980
and we have more powers than we would
0:13:06.519,0:13:11.649
when we’re not at war okay that makes
0:13:08.980,0:13:13.869
sense yeah the opinion
0:13:11.649,0:13:16.600
so after every Lake Supreme Court ruling
0:13:13.869,0:13:18.970
one of the justices has to write an
0:13:16.600,0:13:22.269
opinion normally there are two like it’s
0:13:18.970,0:13:24.699
the people who voted like yes I agree in
0:13:22.269,0:13:26.649
people who voted no I disagree one from
0:13:24.699,0:13:28.149
each side will write kind of the summary
0:13:26.649,0:13:30.910
of what everyone was thinking at the
0:13:28.149,0:13:36.220
time so the opinion was written by
0:13:30.910,0:13:39.369
justice Oliver Wendell Holmes jr. jr. Oh
0:13:36.220,0:13:41.709
a quick background on him so he was
0:13:39.369,0:13:44.429
actually a civil war veteran and he had
0:13:41.709,0:13:47.199
joined the Union Army in support of the
0:13:44.429,0:13:49.540
abolition movement so that was the north
0:13:47.199,0:13:51.550
and he was like I’m against slavery so
0:13:49.540,0:13:52.720
I’m gonna fight in the Civil War so
0:13:51.550,0:13:56.110
that’s him
0:13:52.720,0:13:59.139
be cool dude so the reason this case is
0:13:56.110,0:14:01.869
so influential is because it created the
0:13:59.139,0:14:03.519
clear and present danger criteria for
0:14:01.869,0:14:05.319
the free speech so I don’t know if
0:14:03.519,0:14:06.699
you’ve heard of that before like
0:14:05.319,0:14:12.369
basically kind of like oh you can’t
0:14:06.699,0:14:15.759
shout fire yeah exact yeah so basically
0:14:12.369,0:14:17.920
this test is used to determine whether
0:14:15.759,0:14:20.199
words are used in order to create a
0:14:17.920,0:14:22.929
clear and present danger that will bring
0:14:20.199,0:14:26.199
about substantive evils that Congress
0:14:22.929,0:14:30.269
has a right to prevent and yeah does
0:14:26.199,0:14:33.339
that make sense yeah it does okay so
0:14:30.269,0:14:35.559
Justice Holmes argues that even though
0:14:33.339,0:14:37.329
these pamphlets like practically didn’t
0:14:35.559,0:14:39.480
have any effect in changing the minds of
0:14:37.329,0:14:43.059
the readers like they’re just pamphlets
0:14:39.480,0:14:46.420
he said that it was about the intent of
0:14:43.059,0:14:49.689
the crime so shank shanks intent was to
0:14:46.420,0:14:52.240
cause disruption and insubordination and
0:14:49.689,0:14:54.519
so you know what the pamphlets for
0:14:52.240,0:14:58.959
saying like yeah they were basically
0:14:54.519,0:15:01.269
like they were like hey if you got
0:14:58.959,0:15:04.149
drafted into the military just don’t go
0:15:01.269,0:15:06.999
like don’t show or like hey we don’t
0:15:04.149,0:15:08.559
like that we are required to like we
0:15:06.999,0:15:10.749
don’t like this military draft so let’s
0:15:08.559,0:15:13.299
all fight against it and let’s not
0:15:10.749,0:15:16.509
follow the rules that’s what they were
0:15:13.299,0:15:18.930
arguing yeah and so it was all about
0:15:16.509,0:15:20.820
resisting military service and so
0:15:18.930,0:15:23.010
yeah so Justice Holmes is like success
0:15:20.820,0:15:24.839
alone doesn’t weren’t making the active
0:15:23.010,0:15:26.399
crime so it’s not about the success of
0:15:24.839,0:15:30.390
it it’s about the intent that’s
0:15:26.399,0:15:32.160
important to keep in mind so this is so
0:15:30.390,0:15:35.490
then this a couple months after this
0:15:32.160,0:15:37.620
case right there’s another case of some
0:15:35.490,0:15:39.180
guy violating the Espionage Act because
0:15:37.620,0:15:41.250
like left and right people are getting
0:15:39.180,0:15:44.190
convicted under the Espionage Act so a
0:15:41.250,0:15:46.860
couple months later we have another
0:15:44.190,0:15:50.100
Supreme Court ruling and it’s again it’s
0:15:46.860,0:15:54.330
unanimous upholding the conviction so
0:15:50.100,0:15:58.800
they agree and then it’s again written
0:15:54.330,0:16:02.430
by Justice Holmes the opinion so this
0:15:58.800,0:16:05.550
case is called Deb’s versus the United
0:16:02.430,0:16:07.800
States so Eugene V Deb’s is a well-known
0:16:05.550,0:16:10.440
public figure he actually ran for
0:16:07.800,0:16:13.290
president in 1912 and he received almost
0:16:10.440,0:16:16.790
a million votes so he was yet a big
0:16:13.290,0:16:21.060
support support supporting yeah yeah
0:16:16.790,0:16:26.610
like following the big following yeah oh
0:16:21.060,0:16:28.620
I’m June 16 1918 Deb’s gives a speech to
0:16:26.610,0:16:32.160
a thousand two hundred people outside a
0:16:28.620,0:16:33.839
prison in Canton Ohio so he was actually
0:16:32.160,0:16:35.940
visiting three prisoners who were
0:16:33.839,0:16:38.670
socialists convicted under the Sedition
0:16:35.940,0:16:40.860
Act so in his speech he praises the
0:16:38.670,0:16:44.279
socialist prisoners that he was visiting
0:16:40.860,0:16:46.230
and he condemns World War one he was
0:16:44.279,0:16:48.150
like hey I don’t like it and he
0:16:46.230,0:16:50.850
technically doesn’t advocate for any
0:16:48.150,0:16:53.070
illegal activities however he does
0:16:50.850,0:16:56.130
mention in his speech that he was being
0:16:53.070,0:16:58.980
very careful in his word choice but
0:16:56.130,0:17:01.890
basically like hey don’t do anything bad
0:16:58.980,0:17:02.940
but also like I gotta be careful so it’s
0:17:01.890,0:17:05.730
kind of like read between the lines
0:17:02.940,0:17:07.679
right and so he’s arrested for this
0:17:05.730,0:17:09.750
speech and he’s convicted under the
0:17:07.679,0:17:12.300
Sedition Act for obstructing military
0:17:09.750,0:17:14.760
recruitment and enlistment and he is
0:17:12.300,0:17:18.990
sentenced to ten years in prison and so
0:17:14.760,0:17:20.850
I’ve like I said earlier this the
0:17:18.990,0:17:22.589
Supreme Court voted unanimously to
0:17:20.850,0:17:25.679
uphold his conviction so they’re like
0:17:22.589,0:17:29.010
yeah ten in jail and so justice home
0:17:25.679,0:17:31.720
likes the opinion once again and home
0:17:29.010,0:17:33.190
says Deb’s warning in his feed
0:17:31.720,0:17:36.130
meant that the audience was free to
0:17:33.190,0:17:38.020
interpret an underlying message and so
0:17:36.130,0:17:40.270
that’s kind of why they’re like yeah we
0:17:38.020,0:17:44.380
don’t like this speech so get him out of
0:17:40.270,0:17:46.330
here and some actually homes were also
0:17:44.380,0:17:48.340
later today that although he never
0:17:46.330,0:17:51.159
questioned the correctness of the
0:17:48.340,0:17:53.820
decision he was unhappy that the federal
0:17:51.159,0:17:57.130
government had chosen to prosecute Debs
0:17:53.820,0:17:59.919
and sent him to prison and also that
0:17:57.130,0:18:03.309
Holmes was the one chosen to write the
0:17:59.919,0:18:05.710
opinion so he is kind of like yeah like
0:18:03.309,0:18:09.340
I think he violated this act but maybe
0:18:05.710,0:18:11.679
ten years is a bit much yeah so Justice
0:18:09.340,0:18:14.919
Holmes is not happy that he has to write
0:18:11.679,0:18:17.799
this opinion for the case but don’t feel
0:18:14.919,0:18:19.659
too sad for Deb’s because in 1920 he
0:18:17.799,0:18:21.760
actually runs from president once for
0:18:19.659,0:18:23.710
president while he’s in prison and again
0:18:21.760,0:18:25.990
he receives almost a million votes and
0:18:23.710,0:18:28.960
his sentence is later commuted by
0:18:25.990,0:18:30.580
President warren g harding in 1921 so
0:18:28.960,0:18:32.679
then he said are you allowed to run for
0:18:30.580,0:18:35.460
president while you’re in prison I was
0:18:32.679,0:18:38.409
wondering I mean I I would have thought
0:18:35.460,0:18:39.700
no but because you’re not elect aren’t
0:18:38.409,0:18:42.970
you not allowed to vote when you’re
0:18:39.700,0:18:46.179
incarcerated that might be a more recent
0:18:42.970,0:18:48.610
law I don’t know like when that was
0:18:46.179,0:18:50.890
decided yeah that’s it we should look
0:18:48.610,0:18:55.600
that up yeah I don’t think I’m surprised
0:18:50.890,0:19:01.210
you got a million votes but yeah but
0:18:55.600,0:19:03.820
yeah okay so okay so now we can finally
0:19:01.210,0:19:04.240
jump back to Abrams versus the United
0:19:03.820,0:19:06.970
States
0:19:04.240,0:19:09.370
so all this so Schenk versus the United
0:19:06.970,0:19:11.590
States and Deb’s versus the United
0:19:09.370,0:19:13.960
States this is all roughly eight months
0:19:11.590,0:19:16.179
before Abrams versus the United States
0:19:13.960,0:19:17.890
his court case is sent to the Supreme
0:19:16.179,0:19:21.250
Court so this is like right on top of
0:19:17.890,0:19:26.169
each other right and so it reaches the
0:19:21.250,0:19:28.659
Supreme Court in 1919 and basically the
0:19:26.169,0:19:30.789
justices in this case they apply the
0:19:28.659,0:19:32.980
clear and present danger test that was
0:19:30.789,0:19:34.659
created only eight months ago like I
0:19:32.980,0:19:41.010
said in Schenck versus the United States
0:19:34.659,0:19:44.110
and so we have the majority of Justices
0:19:41.010,0:19:45.670
uphold his conviction so they agree like
0:19:44.110,0:19:47.380
hey you should go to
0:19:45.670,0:19:49.570
for twenty years because we don’t like
0:19:47.380,0:19:51.640
your pamphlets and so justice John H
0:19:49.570,0:19:54.490
Clarke says the purpose of the pamphlets
0:19:51.640,0:19:57.580
were to excite riots and sedition as
0:19:54.490,0:19:59.620
well as disaffection with the war and a
0:19:57.580,0:20:02.890
general strike would have hindered us
0:19:59.620,0:20:05.440
war efforts so they’re like yeah even if
0:20:02.890,0:20:06.910
your pamphlets didn’t reach a lot of
0:20:05.440,0:20:10.090
people it doesn’t matter you guys
0:20:06.910,0:20:11.560
weren’t like trying to kind of sabotage
0:20:10.090,0:20:13.900
us so mm-hmm
0:20:11.560,0:20:16.570
I want to do um it’s kind of funny
0:20:13.900,0:20:19.300
because when you say pamphlets it sounds
0:20:16.570,0:20:23.710
like less serious like hey we didn’t
0:20:19.300,0:20:27.340
like your pamphlet so it’s like you use
0:20:23.710,0:20:30.130
Comic Sans in your brush no I like this
0:20:27.340,0:20:31.810
color scheme you went with no it’s like
0:20:30.130,0:20:34.840
stuff you see in like I don’t know hotel
0:20:31.810,0:20:37.450
lobbies but I guess it well when I also
0:20:34.840,0:20:39.850
when I was doing research I did check
0:20:37.450,0:20:41.460
Wikipedia I did not include what I
0:20:39.850,0:20:45.070
learned in Wikipedia in this
0:20:41.460,0:20:47.320
presentation because everyone doesn’t
0:20:45.070,0:20:49.360
yeah everyone’s conflicted about the
0:20:47.320,0:20:52.180
validity of that but when I was looking
0:20:49.360,0:20:53.560
at Wikipedia they were like setting the
0:20:52.180,0:20:55.300
scene and they’re like oh they’re in New
0:20:53.560,0:20:56.530
York City in Manhattan and they’re
0:20:55.300,0:20:59.740
throwing all these papers out the
0:20:56.530,0:21:02.650
windows onto the street so I don’t know
0:20:59.740,0:21:04.090
if that’s true that’s a clear I mean it
0:21:02.650,0:21:06.970
makes sense though right because if you
0:21:04.090,0:21:09.730
like modern day if you’re sending out
0:21:06.970,0:21:12.700
slander online that’s similar to
0:21:09.730,0:21:14.770
pamphlets back then and you can be I
0:21:12.700,0:21:16.480
don’t know if you can be jailed for that
0:21:14.770,0:21:21.070
but yeah there are limitations on what
0:21:16.480,0:21:23.260
you can say to online exactly yeah so
0:21:21.070,0:21:25.060
basically the Supreme Court was like now
0:21:23.260,0:21:28.420
we don’t like this however there are two
0:21:25.060,0:21:30.460
justices that don’t agree with this and
0:21:28.420,0:21:33.370
say so they dissent with a majority
0:21:30.460,0:21:35.140
opinion and so surprise surprise
0:21:33.370,0:21:37.810
one of these guys it’s Justice Holmes
0:21:35.140,0:21:40.120
from earlier and then the AUSA the other
0:21:37.810,0:21:44.140
guy I’m sorry the other justice is
0:21:40.120,0:21:45.880
justice Louis Brandeis so Louis Brandeis
0:21:44.140,0:21:48.970
and he’s quite famous
0:21:45.880,0:21:50.560
um but yeah so Holmes we had he was the
0:21:48.970,0:21:53.530
one who basically created the whole
0:21:50.560,0:21:58.150
criteria for this clear and present
0:21:53.530,0:21:59.559
danger test and he was like actually so
0:21:58.150,0:22:01.480
before this he
0:21:59.559,0:22:03.039
had written all those opinions and all
0:22:01.480,0:22:04.809
these other people publishing pamphlets
0:22:03.039,0:22:06.490
right he was like yeah they should go to
0:22:04.809,0:22:10.360
jail but then in this case he was like
0:22:06.490,0:22:13.360
um maybe not I think so
0:22:10.360,0:22:16.179
he still basically he in his opinion or
0:22:13.360,0:22:18.249
sorry in his dissent he writes that he
0:22:16.179,0:22:20.110
stills agree he still agrees that the
0:22:18.249,0:22:22.120
government’s power to suppress speech
0:22:20.110,0:22:25.210
was greater in times of war
0:22:22.120,0:22:27.820
so he’s like yeah war time is crazy but
0:22:25.210,0:22:30.129
he says nobody can suppose that the
0:22:27.820,0:22:32.320
publishing of a silly leaflet by an
0:22:30.129,0:22:34.749
unknown man would present any immediate
0:22:32.320,0:22:36.700
danger that would lead to the hindering
0:22:34.749,0:22:39.369
of the government so basically he’s like
0:22:36.700,0:22:42.100
okay yeah like what they said is bad but
0:22:39.369,0:22:43.840
also I think it’s kind of dramatic that
0:22:42.100,0:22:46.990
you’re saying these pamphlets are gonna
0:22:43.840,0:22:49.480
like lead to the collapse of the war and
0:22:46.990,0:22:54.580
like yeah you know so like everyone
0:22:49.480,0:22:57.070
chill and additionally he writes that
0:22:54.580,0:22:59.110
sentences of twenty years had been
0:22:57.070,0:23:01.570
imposed for the publishing of leaflets
0:22:59.110,0:23:03.669
that the defendants had is much right to
0:23:01.570,0:23:06.309
publish as the government had to publish
0:23:03.669,0:23:10.299
a constitution so I thought it was
0:23:06.309,0:23:13.749
really yeah like it’s like tea the tea
0:23:10.299,0:23:16.090
today like I was like wow and like I was
0:23:13.749,0:23:18.039
actually yeah you can it’s really cool
0:23:16.090,0:23:20.230
you could read all the court transcripts
0:23:18.039,0:23:22.330
in every way and like respect to the
0:23:20.230,0:23:24.789
Constitution but truly that’s kind of
0:23:22.330,0:23:26.919
what happened is a few guys wrote
0:23:24.789,0:23:29.679
extinct and then there’s like it is the
0:23:26.919,0:23:33.340
law at one point we were the rebels and
0:23:29.679,0:23:35.830
so yeah yeah so he’s like who are we to
0:23:33.340,0:23:39.220
say who has the right to publish what so
0:23:35.830,0:23:42.309
it was this so this case Abrams versus
0:23:39.220,0:23:44.529
the United States was super influential
0:23:42.309,0:23:45.940
because basically Justice Holmes dissent
0:23:44.529,0:23:47.889
changed the course of the First
0:23:45.940,0:23:48.429
Amendment for the remainder of the 20th
0:23:47.889,0:23:52.240
century
0:23:48.429,0:23:54.490
so reminder in Schenck versus the United
0:23:52.240,0:23:57.580
States the clear and present danger test
0:23:54.490,0:23:59.950
had been applied like with minimal
0:23:57.580,0:24:01.659
scrutiny in regards to whether or not
0:23:59.950,0:24:03.610
the pamphlets were likely to have
0:24:01.659,0:24:06.429
substantive impact on those who read
0:24:03.610,0:24:08.679
them so they were really a like I don’t
0:24:06.429,0:24:10.000
know they were pretty much like we just
0:24:08.679,0:24:12.100
don’t like what you’re saying I don’t
0:24:10.000,0:24:13.309
care how severe like your actions were
0:24:12.100,0:24:15.769
just don’t say
0:24:13.309,0:24:18.139
what you’re saying but in Abrams versus
0:24:15.769,0:24:20.419
the United States homes more carefully
0:24:18.139,0:24:22.970
scrutinized other competing factors in
0:24:20.419,0:24:24.049
determining the outcome of this test so
0:24:22.970,0:24:26.389
he was like we need to look at the whole
0:24:24.049,0:24:32.019
picture and maybe kind of just like
0:24:26.389,0:24:35.389
chill out and so like up up until today
0:24:32.019,0:24:37.909
Constitution scholars have been kind of
0:24:35.389,0:24:39.559
curious as to why Justice Holmes like so
0:24:37.909,0:24:41.330
quickly changed his mind between the
0:24:39.559,0:24:43.039
first two cases and in this case they’re
0:24:41.330,0:24:45.440
like he was one who made the test and
0:24:43.039,0:24:47.330
now he’s kind of like smack-talking it
0:24:45.440,0:24:49.309
and so they’re like why did he do this
0:24:47.330,0:24:51.710
basically there’s a lot of different
0:24:49.309,0:24:55.299
theories but he a lot of people think he
0:24:51.710,0:24:58.639
was influenced by others he had met with
0:24:55.299,0:25:01.399
other like harvard law professors and
0:24:58.639,0:25:02.840
people who were very influential in the
0:25:01.399,0:25:05.269
legal world and they were kind of like
0:25:02.840,0:25:08.210
hey like we saw the rulings of the first
0:25:05.269,0:25:10.519
two court cases and maybe we don’t agree
0:25:08.210,0:25:13.159
with you maybe we think you’re kind of
0:25:10.519,0:25:15.799
taking the First Amendment you’re kind
0:25:13.159,0:25:17.899
of like abusing the power of it and yeah
0:25:15.799,0:25:19.700
and so they think that because he had
0:25:17.899,0:25:22.100
met with these other people maybe that’s
0:25:19.700,0:25:24.980
why he was more lenient in Abram versus
0:25:22.100,0:25:27.289
the United States however there are only
0:25:24.980,0:25:30.799
two justices who dissented
0:25:27.289,0:25:33.980
so basically Abraham’s conviction is so
0:25:30.799,0:25:35.929
upheld and their him and for others the
0:25:33.980,0:25:39.320
four other Russian immigrants are sent
0:25:35.929,0:25:41.960
to prison for 20 years but two years
0:25:39.320,0:25:45.169
into their prison time the defendants
0:25:41.960,0:25:49.460
are deported to Russia so the u.s. is
0:25:45.169,0:25:52.690
like okay buy a ticket to Russia
0:25:49.460,0:25:55.070
they’re basically set free and again I
0:25:52.690,0:25:57.619
it was really hard to find a lot of
0:25:55.070,0:25:59.869
information on Jacob Abrams and I was
0:25:57.619,0:26:01.850
also hard to find a list of the names of
0:25:59.869,0:26:05.119
the other Russian immigrants I kept
0:26:01.850,0:26:08.659
getting different names but according to
0:26:05.119,0:26:11.149
some sites Abrams actually moves to
0:26:08.659,0:26:13.970
Mexico later in his life and he spends
0:26:11.149,0:26:17.990
the rest of his life in Mexico and he
0:26:13.970,0:26:19.879
dies there so and I think the actually I
0:26:17.990,0:26:21.619
believe I also read somewhere that one
0:26:19.879,0:26:23.720
of the other defendants had actually
0:26:21.619,0:26:25.129
died while in prison in the US and so
0:26:23.720,0:26:26.700
there’s really it’s really kind of
0:26:25.129,0:26:28.850
difficult to find information
0:26:26.700,0:26:32.580
because I think it’s a really old case
0:26:28.850,0:26:36.690
yeah and so basically that kind of sums
0:26:32.580,0:26:39.840
up the history of the Espionage Act and
0:26:36.690,0:26:42.090
why it was created and then also kind of
0:26:39.840,0:26:45.930
the controversies it had caused early on
0:26:42.090,0:26:48.240
in its creation but the Espionage Act in
0:26:45.930,0:26:51.590
this Sedition Act still exists today and
0:26:48.240,0:26:55.200
so there actually have been several
0:26:51.590,0:26:58.020
recent convictions within the past years
0:26:55.200,0:26:59.940
both under the Obama administration and
0:26:58.020,0:27:03.270
the Trump administration so even though
0:26:59.940,0:27:05.400
this Act has been around for a long time
0:27:03.270,0:27:06.930
and it was you know it was originally
0:27:05.400,0:27:09.900
created because of World War one it
0:27:06.930,0:27:13.320
still exists today and so I wanted to
0:27:09.900,0:27:19.440
talk really briefly about one of the
0:27:13.320,0:27:21.570
most more recent cases of the violating
0:27:19.440,0:27:24.360
the Espionage Act so this man is
0:27:21.570,0:27:27.330
basically a household name so Edward
0:27:24.360,0:27:29.790
Snowden was a former CIA analyst who had
0:27:27.330,0:27:32.580
access to information about classified
0:27:29.790,0:27:34.560
NSA surveillance programs and so
0:27:32.580,0:27:36.390
basically these programs pertain to the
0:27:34.560,0:27:38.850
government’s access to phone and
0:27:36.390,0:27:41.130
Internet records under a process that
0:27:38.850,0:27:42.450
was allowed by the Patriot Act and for
0:27:41.130,0:27:47.310
those of you who don’t know the Patriot
0:27:42.450,0:27:50.220
Act was enacted shortly after 9/11 in
0:27:47.310,0:27:52.110
order yeah and I mean oh no you should
0:27:50.220,0:27:54.630
explain that more because I thought that
0:27:52.110,0:27:58.590
was just Hasan Minhaj is new sugar or
0:27:54.630,0:28:00.930
Netflix the page is that the title of
0:27:58.590,0:28:04.440
yeah that’s what it’s called but what’s
0:28:00.930,0:28:07.460
that about um yeah so basically the
0:28:04.440,0:28:09.860
Patriot Act so it was yeah it was
0:28:07.460,0:28:14.100
enacted under the Bush administration
0:28:09.860,0:28:19.020
george w bush and it basically extended
0:28:14.100,0:28:21.060
the government’s powers to i guess going
0:28:19.020,0:28:25.080
to look into people’s private
0:28:21.060,0:28:29.550
information as long as it pertained to
0:28:25.080,0:28:32.160
protecting people security yeah okay so
0:28:29.550,0:28:34.110
because the threat of terrorism seemed
0:28:32.160,0:28:36.260
to be a greater risk they’re like we
0:28:34.110,0:28:38.360
need to we need more power to be able to
0:28:36.260,0:28:40.820
prevent a
0:28:38.360,0:28:42.980
I’ve had this debate with so many people
0:28:40.820,0:28:45.350
in computer science especially as like
0:28:42.980,0:28:47.899
technology progresses that’s a huge
0:28:45.350,0:28:50.570
discussion is like data privacy of
0:28:47.899,0:28:51.860
consumerism hey yeah I mean you hear
0:28:50.570,0:28:55.340
about it in the news a lot there are
0:28:51.860,0:28:57.470
court cases today so I mean yeah social
0:28:55.340,0:29:00.559
media companies and everything so that’s
0:28:57.470,0:29:04.309
basically so okay let me quick side note
0:29:00.559,0:29:07.700
regardless of what your opinions on are
0:29:04.309,0:29:10.519
on Edward Snowden um so the goal of this
0:29:07.700,0:29:13.510
podcast we’re trying to remain as a
0:29:10.519,0:29:16.100
political and as unbiased as possible
0:29:13.510,0:29:19.340
Jack and I kind of want to be like the
0:29:16.100,0:29:22.970
Switzerland however we want to remain
0:29:19.340,0:29:24.320
neutral in all of these I guess current
0:29:22.970,0:29:26.600
political arguments because we are here
0:29:24.320,0:29:29.240
to just talk about employers we’re gonna
0:29:26.600,0:29:30.740
present both sides prevent present both
0:29:29.240,0:29:31.880
sides we’re here to talk about history
0:29:30.740,0:29:33.950
um
0:29:31.880,0:29:36.049
so regardless of what your opinion is on
0:29:33.950,0:29:39.470
Edward Snowden I just wanted to bring
0:29:36.049,0:29:41.059
them up because I think it’s really
0:29:39.470,0:29:42.320
important when we look at history so
0:29:41.059,0:29:44.149
we’re talking about the creation of the
0:29:42.320,0:29:46.909
Espionage Act but it’s I think it’s
0:29:44.149,0:29:50.360
really important to see um the lasting
0:29:46.909,0:29:53.179
effects that these X and these Supreme
0:29:50.360,0:29:54.830
Court cases have on our country and how
0:29:53.179,0:29:58.309
we can relate what we learned in history
0:29:54.830,0:29:59.570
to the present time um so yeah it’s good
0:29:58.309,0:30:01.820
so we’re talking about you know World
0:29:59.570,0:30:04.100
War one Espionage Act but there are
0:30:01.820,0:30:07.220
still convictions being held today in
0:30:04.100,0:30:08.690
times of peace and everything so yeah so
0:30:07.220,0:30:10.370
I just wanted that’s why I bring it up
0:30:08.690,0:30:12.889
just to make the connection between the
0:30:10.370,0:30:15.440
past and the present so you can even
0:30:12.889,0:30:18.620
form your own opinions and his actions
0:30:15.440,0:30:20.750
and everything and yeah also if you
0:30:18.620,0:30:23.120
didn’t know so today he’s still living
0:30:20.750,0:30:25.309
in exile in Russia but he still faces
0:30:23.120,0:30:27.740
charges in the US yeah do you want to
0:30:25.309,0:30:31.120
give a brief overview of what he did for
0:30:27.740,0:30:35.659
like people yeah basically he leaked
0:30:31.120,0:30:38.899
classified documents from the National
0:30:35.659,0:30:41.090
Security Agency that kind of gave an
0:30:38.899,0:30:44.899
overview of these surveillance programs
0:30:41.090,0:30:47.120
that were extremely classified yeah he
0:30:44.899,0:30:48.760
believed that the government was
0:30:47.120,0:30:52.190
infringing infringing on people’s
0:30:48.760,0:30:54.440
privacy you can come to whatever
0:30:52.190,0:30:56.230
you would like but yeah basically he
0:30:54.440,0:30:59.120
leaked these documents because the
0:30:56.230,0:31:00.620
government had more access to phone and
0:30:59.120,0:31:02.389
Internet records than they did
0:31:00.620,0:31:05.330
previously before the Patriot Act and
0:31:02.389,0:31:08.899
maybe not as many Americans knew about
0:31:05.330,0:31:10.490
this so that’s why he chose to beat
0:31:08.899,0:31:11.899
those documents there was a lot of
0:31:10.490,0:31:13.639
movies about him I think there’s one
0:31:11.899,0:31:18.379
Joseph gordon-levitt played him I
0:31:13.639,0:31:20.179
believe yes I did not watch the movie
0:31:18.379,0:31:23.120
but there’s a ton of information about
0:31:20.179,0:31:27.110
him there and I also encourage listeners
0:31:23.120,0:31:29.210
to research other convictions of the
0:31:27.110,0:31:32.870
recent convictions made under the
0:31:29.210,0:31:34.789
Espionage Act in the past year few years
0:31:32.870,0:31:40.639
so there have been a lot I think it’s
0:31:34.789,0:31:43.370
really interesting to look at yeah also
0:31:40.639,0:31:46.309
look into like data privacy right now
0:31:43.370,0:31:48.440
see really freaks me out it gives me the
0:31:46.309,0:31:50.840
heebie-jeebies like I swear I really
0:31:48.440,0:31:52.879
need to do better at looking through
0:31:50.840,0:31:54.320
actual terms and conditions of websites
0:31:52.879,0:31:57.620
instead of just like automatically
0:31:54.320,0:31:59.659
clicking stuff and yeah so if in case
0:31:57.620,0:32:01.909
you’re listening to our podcast we also
0:31:59.659,0:32:04.009
record a video version and upload it to
0:32:01.909,0:32:07.100
YouTube right now we’re recording unzoom
0:32:04.009,0:32:09.799
and there’s also been like stuff coming
0:32:07.100,0:32:13.039
out about zoom and privacy rights and so
0:32:09.799,0:32:15.919
it really yeah they’re like during now
0:32:13.039,0:32:18.529
during court quarantine our lives are on
0:32:15.919,0:32:22.070
the internet and on social media now
0:32:18.529,0:32:26.299
more than ever so right and I think just
0:32:22.070,0:32:29.299
because I’m in the tech field if you’re
0:32:26.299,0:32:32.080
not like aware like social media gathers
0:32:29.299,0:32:35.000
so much of your data whether or not you
0:32:32.080,0:32:36.139
knew that or not so I I think it’s
0:32:35.000,0:32:38.480
interesting cuz the government does
0:32:36.139,0:32:40.639
gather data that you don’t want to get
0:32:38.480,0:32:42.500
like could share my opinion too much but
0:32:40.639,0:32:45.259
I the government collects our data but
0:32:42.500,0:32:46.789
also sort of social media so if you’re
0:32:45.259,0:32:48.500
uncomfortable with the amount of data
0:32:46.789,0:32:51.259
that government has on you just know
0:32:48.500,0:32:53.419
that you like when you sign up for
0:32:51.259,0:32:54.860
tik-tok and you sign up for Instagram
0:32:53.419,0:32:58.279
like they’re allowed to collect data on
0:32:54.860,0:33:01.009
you too and Facebook has more data on me
0:32:58.279,0:33:02.960
like to admit you do a quick Google
0:33:01.009,0:33:05.480
search of yourself it’s crazy you could
0:33:02.960,0:33:07.520
find me so much yeah
0:33:05.480,0:33:11.000
information be really careful of your
0:33:07.520,0:33:12.710
digital footprint it’s really hard to
0:33:11.000,0:33:16.040
avoid too because especially with
0:33:12.710,0:33:17.720
Internet of Things emerging things just
0:33:16.040,0:33:19.520
get more and more connected there’s
0:33:17.720,0:33:23.210
those theories with like Alexa
0:33:19.520,0:33:25.549
overhearing you and oh yeah yeah those
0:33:23.210,0:33:28.309
are those are scary I have an Alexa I
0:33:25.549,0:33:30.410
love my Alexa if Alexis listening to me
0:33:28.309,0:33:33.290
sorry like I still like her I still
0:33:30.410,0:33:39.500
wanna use Bezos we are a friend not a
0:33:33.290,0:33:43.280
foe but yes I know
0:33:39.500,0:33:45.770
oh that’s basically a brief history of
0:33:43.280,0:33:48.110
freedom of speech and its relation to
0:33:45.770,0:33:50.929
the Espionage Act super interesting you
0:33:48.110,0:33:53.510
know we talk a lot about spies today as
0:33:50.929,0:33:55.040
well so you know I think it’s really
0:33:53.510,0:33:57.440
interesting to look at how we dealt with
0:33:55.040,0:34:00.470
the situation back then and suppression
0:33:57.440,0:34:01.610
of speech during wartime it’s not just
0:34:00.470,0:34:03.559
something that happened during World War
0:34:01.610,0:34:06.980
one it’s something that happens
0:34:03.559,0:34:09.340
basically during every conflict in any
0:34:06.980,0:34:12.790
in any country but yeah I think it’s
0:34:09.340,0:34:15.919
also really interesting to look at how
0:34:12.790,0:34:18.440
speech was suppressed during other wars
0:34:15.919,0:34:21.859
in our US history so I would definitely
0:34:18.440,0:34:24.530
look into that oh yeah what do you guys
0:34:21.859,0:34:26.869
think you guys should email us and tell
0:34:24.530,0:34:29.119
us your thoughts on you know should
0:34:26.869,0:34:31.340
freedom of speech be limited in times of
0:34:29.119,0:34:33.470
war what do you think about that I’d
0:34:31.340,0:34:37.820
love to hear actually I genuinely would
0:34:33.470,0:34:39.429
love to hear it’s a really complex and
0:34:37.820,0:34:41.690
it’s a really interesting argument
0:34:39.429,0:34:44.960
especially I don’t know a world war one
0:34:41.690,0:34:46.520
I really can’t imagine living what it
0:34:44.960,0:34:48.500
was what it must have been like to live
0:34:46.520,0:34:50.570
during that period like the first world
0:34:48.500,0:34:55.550
war they must have been really really
0:34:50.570,0:34:58.609
scary but yeah freedom of speech is a
0:34:55.550,0:35:01.520
very yeah there’s a lot of controversy
0:34:58.609,0:35:02.780
surrounding it I think yeah I would love
0:35:01.520,0:35:04.310
to hear what everyone thinks please send
0:35:02.780,0:35:10.040
us an email how did we not know that
0:35:04.310,0:35:15.230
Eddie hey I’m anxiously awaiting we love
0:35:10.040,0:35:16.880
you yeah oh my gosh that would be really
0:35:15.230,0:35:19.540
interesting yeah send us email so we
0:35:16.880,0:35:23.290
could comment on it yeah
0:35:19.540,0:35:27.480
you must suck to do well thanks for
0:35:23.290,0:35:27.480
sharing that thanks for listening
0:35:27.710,0:35:47.460
[Music]
How Did We Not Know That 